If you haven’t seen this yet, Google is planning to require mandatory developer
identity verification for all Android apps, including apps distributed outside
the Play Store, taking effect September 2026. This affects every independent
and open source Android developer directly.
This is not just about the Play Store. After September 2026, on any certified
Android device, applications from unverified developers will be blocked by
default. The only proposed bypass, the “advanced flow”, exists only as a
blog post and has not appeared in any beta, dev preview, or canary release.
No one outside Google has seen it.
Regulators won’t be any help - Apple has always been even more locked down than that, and no one forbade it, so how are they gonna stop Google from doing the same?
IMO the only way out is to leave Android and turn to Linux completely (that means Linux hardware adaptation layers, no more Android anywhere). Some phones have already been made like this
Main-line Linux phones are really not the way, at least at the moment. Android is fine, AOSP really is an amazing project and easily one of the most impressive software projects ever advanced by humanity. AOSP-derivatives like LineageOS or GrapheneOS are just as much FOSS as any traditional Linux distribution.
AOSP is nice and everything, but you do realize with their next move, Google can take it away anytime they want, right? They actually have already taken steps that make it harder to create independent ROMs, by stopping the publication of device trees.
People don’t get it: it doesn’t matter Graphene or LineageOS. Its still Android and will still be bound to the same limitations, unless you go fully degoogled which means give up on internet banking, cardless payments and government apps. (And much more like m Donalds app and more… But I don’t care for those)
We need open trust platform not one controlled by Google, Graphene or lineage are just not valid alternatives. We need a Linux phone.
I see this take repeated again and again it is simply not true. LineageOS and other FOSS AOSP-derivatives are the best, most-supported and most-accepted FOSS mobile operating systems that we have available to us. And no, you neither have to give up on contactless payments nor on internet banking or government apps. There are many applications that don’t play nice with FOSS Android, but if you make the effort to choose your service providers with intent, so that they are compatible, then it is very much possible to daily-drive a fully de-Googled phone.
But banking apps and government apps is not a convenience, is a requirement, especially because, well, by law, they are required to provide an app and there is no choice around it. At least here.
I could indeed go back to bicycle everywhere I want to go and take in the train, but that is not convenience, that is life, so I need a car.
My point is that Google controls Android, whether they graciously allow us to have our foss Android and recompile it from sources is nice, but we still depend on Google and this is not good.
This is what needs to change, and there is no way around it.
Graphene isn’t a ROM, it is a standalone mobile OS based on the Android Open Source Project. So yes, Google primarily develops it, and has de-facto control. But Graphene is actively working to change that, especially with partnering with OEMs so that they can increase device driver support and give more devs incentive to work on AOSP/Graphene in general. For mobile devices the device drivers are huge, unlike desktop/server linux where MOST (obviously not all) things work.
I beg to defer on the device drivers. Maybe you don’t remember, but it’s been decades before Linux would adapt, reimplement or convince manufacturer to provide drivers for it.
Modems first. Graphics card next. Wi-Fi networks also. Winprinters. They all come to my mind. And it’s only by time and effort that now looks just works everywhere.
And now while graphene indeed is doing a great job that I appreciate very much, at the same time they are not developing an operating system. Google is.
There is a huge effort behind developing a full operating system, and it also requires standardization and somebody who defines what the standards are.
At this point, Google is the only one doing that. And if they go closed doors, no open source AOSP clone could keep up with Google changing standards and still be compatible, which would end up as an incompatible operating system.
My point is that currently Android needs Google, and there is no fooling around. We are years away of being independent from Google, whatever the great effort other developers are doing.
I appreciate everybody’s work and I have been a lineage supporter and maintainer myself.
There are tons of issues that we need to solve to be really independent from Google. Forking he’s the least of those.
I don’t care for cardless payments, but I do use internet banking, you cannot do without at least here, and government apps too are useful and doing with out is just… Impossible.
Mobile banking is mandatory here, if not able to do mobile banking then you can use non free SMS messages, which sucks.
Government apps mandatory I mean that without, you are cut from most digital government services, which is not practical at all. Survivable, but a pain.
You talk of what you don’t know. Bank apps here are mandatory by law. If you don’t or can’t use a bank app then you can use a SMS verification approach where you are required to PAY SMS that the bank sends you.
Receiving SMS here is free, only those from the bank for verification are to be paid without the bank app, it’s just a scam to force you to use the bank app.
The bank app itself is not a scam like a you are the service approach, and it’s not free either as you pay the bank services with your bank account fees already. Maybe you don’t pay a specific fee for the app, bit you already pay your home banking fees anyway.
Methinks anyone fighting the system will have to carry two phones: one phone presenting a fake happy face to the government and corps and usable only for bank transactions and bureaucratic processes, and a degoogled phone for the things we actually want to do, like organizing rallies and redistributing samizdat.
Quit internet banking? That’s the only form of banking available when the banking offices only have open on every other Tuesday, during the full moon between 11-12:30, closed for an hours lunch.
Note that I haven’t tested this, I’m an iOS user, but Linux with Fairphone is starting to sound better and better. I moved from Android to iOS because Android started feeling so restrictive compared to what it used to be in the single digit version numbers era, it stopped making sense to prefer it over the more convenient OS. Now it seems Linux on certain phones is starting to get usable enough that it can be what Android used to be a decade ago when I still liked it.
Do let everyone know if you do, I think there’s actually quite a few people here who’d be willing to make the change to Linux if the Fairphone is truly as well supported as the UBPorts website claims
For now a linux phone will still lack native banking apps, cardless payment and government apps. Unless the app can run on a degoogled OS (Graphene, waydroid, etc.).
By open trust platform do you mean something akin to play protect?
They’re not wrong.
Of course you can fork and have full control over your fork, but Graphene and company want to be able to keep merging AOSP’s code to keep up with features and improvements.
Merging code from a divergent codebase is harder the more divergence there is, and with big codebases it can easily overwhelm small and medium-sized teams.
It’s the same reason there aren’t lots of chromium forks with manifest v2 support, while it is technically feasible, it requires a bigger effort than most projects can afford.
Keeping an open AOSP fork is not a bad idea, but it’s not clear whether GrapheneOS or any other project will be able to keep up with that workload.
Of course Linux phones require a lot of work too, but it’s work oriented towards making it work instead of towards undoing whatever sabotage google ads to AOSP, so it might motivate more people or be easier to do.
Also, both approaches are compatible.
Linux phones can use waydroid, which depends on AOSP, to run Android apps.
I am sorry to say that forking AOSP is not an easy solution.
I cannot talk for Grafene as I don’t know much of that organization, but I have been part of the Lineage Os organization for a little bit as a maintainer, and I can tell you that nobody is actually able to start working on such an effort as an AOSP fork.
I would gladly be happy if such a work would actually be maintained and supported long time, but I’m skeptical that anybody but a big organization has a power and a resource is to do so. After all even Linux is actually brought along by lots of organizations and also commercial organizations.
Yes, we need an open source trust platform, and I believe that is the only real way forward. I would vouch for a Linux mobile operating system, but indeed, air truly open, Android would be good as well.
Graphenes is degoogled and can support play services in a locked down environment so it doesn’t have full control of your entire system. Play services is what is expected to be used to do the verification process.
While play services are mandatory for play cartification, the opposite is not automatic. In fact, bootloader and device fingerprint play an important role and when you replace the stock OS usually play integrity fails by design.
Do you know first hand that you can achieve play integrity with Graphene and no strange tricks like spoof signature or root?
Given an open certification process anybody could apply and achieve that, at least in theory. Something that with play integrity you cannot being obscured and proprietary.
So who knows, maybe one day even a Linux phone could. But not unless we get an open certification approach.
We are taking about Google. The US tech company that works with the US government(which is rotted to the core now). No matter how noble the reasons they will tell you for this actions, this identity verification will be used for surveillance and control of personal life. This is basically the same thing as with child safety now.
I’ve treated a couple on a Fairphone 4, I’ve owned dsupported devices and I’m enamored, but there are some pros and cons, I highly suggest helping your distros and DE of choice to advance the daily drivability of mobile Linux offerings.
PostmarketOS is a bit annoying because of the mainlining process., but worth considering, specially if you’re a developer, or don’t mind tinkering with kernel configs, OR if you have a phone that is already supported. You got the Alpine repos, plus Flatpak, and Waydroid.
(sidenote fairphones need some work, please send help if you can)
Mobian is similar to postmarketOS, but there’s Deloitian which can help adaption, although it uses Halium. Debian repos and Flatpak and Waydroid are available too.
Ubuntu Touch also uses Hailium, but is a great option for first timers, its easier to port to devices, and has a lot of devices supported and more in development/testing. But, also offers a vast versatility for running applications, not sure if more than the rest, though… (OpenStore, Waydroid, Libertine Containers for Ubuntu Repos+PPAs, no Flatpak though)
SailfishOS also uses Hailium, and is a continuation of Maemo and Moblin, and although its not FOSS, its more customizable than UT, and has more keyboard and sync options than most. If your device isnt officially supported you can still run android via Wayland (like all distributions here) this uses zypper btw, also no current flatpak, and has OpenRepos and Chum Repo.
There’s also Manjaro Mobile, which means there’s also Arch Mobile.
There’s Fedora PocketBlue, its brand new, but stable in some devices.
As for Mobile Environments;
Phosh is most common and I can’t complain, although I don’t enjoy gnome, its been in development for long enough that I’ll admit, its my preferred environment, despite needing another app to theme Qt apps.
GNOME Mobile is suppose to be mainline but, felt more limiting than Phosh, which has been running for longer. I didn’t try this much.
KDE Mobile, JFC I want to love it, but it currently still needs work, the Akonadi alternative wasn’t ready when I tried it, its very close to how Android works, and is the most customizable of the bunch. Again, if you can, send help for development.
Lomiri (UT) can technically be installed in any distroes, it has probably my favorite implementation of a status bar, there’s not much wrong with it, but I haven’t tested it outside of UT.
Lipstick, SailfishOS proprietary fork of NemoMobile, is beautiful and feels nostalgic to what old phones would’ve evolved into has we not have this duopoly. Its closed source so, you can’t contribute, but…
NemoMobile is in active development, and also prefers openSUSE as a base, I suggest checking them out and maybe contribute if it interests you.
There are more but I haven’t tried them.
My personal favorite were PostmarketOS, andSailfishOS. But I’d give someone Ubuntu Touch (or SFOS) for beginners, or Mobian for not-so-beginners.
In bizarre legislation systems like the US and the UK if I understand it correctly. I hope the EU will find some non BS thing to do stopping this crap.
And that graphene os will come to good cheap phones 😬
In fairness, plenty of actors are taking steps in doing x, aka, mobile Linux operating systems. It’s difficult as fuck, even for those with lots of experience, in ways that primarily boil down to the proprietary nature of smartphone communications infrastructure because of companies that have taken actions similar to Google, and then were supported by overreaching legislation. (From what I understand)
This shit runs so deep and has been running for so long, but we’ve only recently started hearing more about ongoing projects because of the flagrant privacy violations surrounding us. Just because so many of us only recently started paying attention, myself included, doesn’t mean that these solutions are new.
I’m confused about what point you’re making here. @[email protected] is asking for recommendations. How do they “take the first step” when they have no idea what’s good? Especially when they’re talking to someone who seems to already know which ones are good, and it’s very easy to ask their knowledgeable opinion.
You’re assuming kbobabob is asking that question in good faith, while thenoirwolfess seems to believe they might be asking in bad faith (i.e., rhetorically asking as a “call out” because they assume leftascenter isn’t actually supporting a GNU phone project)
Indeed, I assumed sarcasm, and replied as if kbobabob was sincere and honestly thinking of supporting a GNU project but would only support whichever ones leftascenter are supporting. My own bias played a part in my interpretation, as I believe that at this point any community GNU project is a worthy project.
I’m pretty unaware of Linux phone projects. Currently on Samsung, but if a good enough Linux phone came along then I’d switch.
Are there actually any projects that are worth it currently? Is it a situation where no one can agree so it’s a fractured space and never really moves forward as a result?
Oh. Well if you’re right, then I just double down. That’s a shitty thing to do. Assuming bad faith tends to be the sign of someone who themselves acts in bad faith. The first comment asked a reasonable question and there was no rational basis on which to assume it was anything other than sincere.
Every single time competitor appeared, they were ignored. Blackberry, Symbian, Windows 8/Mobile.
Microsoft even tried throwing money at app developers to bridge the biggest gap aka apps, but most companies didn’t even want their money, perceiving porting as too troublesome.
It’s actually a shame, because Windows Phone was actually good. It featured a much more user/task-centric UI, letting users think about what they want to do, rather than which app they need to use to do it. Of course, this was bad for apps’ ability to gain and reinforce brand recognition. So of course they didn’t want to support it.
I was a windows phone user and the last Windows version is to blame for killing their phones. They released a half baked platform that literally required SOAP for all network traffic. No raw TCP or UDP access just SOAP… a horrible standard based on XML with like 10x the overhead. 6.1 was probably the best but even that was plagued by compatibility issues.
Honestly this, I thought the windows phone was really good. That said I’ll never forgive Microsoft for buying nokia and effectively killing Meego (yes I know sailfish is a thing but it’s pretty stunted growth wise)
But the play integrity API, or safetynet or whatever, can fail you in its security checks, and apps that require them may refuse to run on those devices.
Not very. They exist, but they’re not mature. Pretty sure the number that actually support calling and texting (you know, the things you have a cell phone to do) are in the single digits.
There actually has been an update on this. The advanced flow has been revealed and it’s like a 24-hour wait and a few prompts to go through and I’ll reboot and enabling developer mode… Bit of friction but all in all it’s better than nothing I guess.
The dev verification is “optional”. With the condition that if a developer doesn’t then users can only install after jumping through a few hoops.
Yeah at least it’s better than Apple’s approach, where you have to connect your phone to a PC once every 7 days to reactivate Developer Mode. Don’t have a computer? Fuck you!
That said, I have zero faith in Google sticking with the compromise solution in the long run. They’re going to try to force the change on everyone again in the future, once they’ve broken us down a bit more.
Meanwhile at least we have a little longer than September before they actually ruin the platform completely… How long? Who could say but I’ll take what small victories I can get
So the way compute used to work, is you could install any program you want from anywhere. You could buy a program from a web site or copy a disk and install the program.
Smartphones have been around since the late 1990s in various forms, it used to be, you could just install whatever you want.
Then, in 2008, Apple released the iPhone app store, and it was a closed space, a “walled garden”. You can only install apps on their phone if they approve them.
Google decided to join the phone race and released a phone where one could still install applications from anywhere, not just their store. There are multiple stores like others have mentioned, or you can download an APK file from anywhere and install it on your phone.
Part of their behavior since is slightly open to interpretation, as the technology is now used by everyone, not just tech nerds. People could install “bad” programs, and they could lose money, cell networks could be compromised, etc.
It likely costs a lot of companies a lot of money to deal with dumb users doing stupid shit. So from one perspective, making it extremely hard to install unknown programs from anywhere will curb that expense.
It could be a defensive move, as LLMs now allow anyone to write computer software with very little knowledge of it, and it is just bad timing.
On the other hand, since the beginning of computers, the owner of the machine could run whatever software they wanted.
This move by Google is basically making it so there is NO mobile compute platform that the owner of the device actually owns, and is allowed to do with their hardware what they want. Apple or Google, that is it. Apple had always been closed, which should have been made illegal, but I digress.
It has been a slippery slope with Android for almost 2 decades, and this move is basically the end of the ability for free humans to install free software from anywhere on the hardware they own and paid anywhere up to $3000 for.
Basically a huge dive for personal freedom on a planetary scale, decided by one corporation.
No one would have an issue with them making this demand of Play Playstore Devs. This demand is being made to every dev of EVERY APP. That includes stores that google has absolutely no control. That means that I no longer have the right to take my own risks and to trust who I want to trust.
They should absolutely make this a requirement to join their store. Id support that. They have no right taking away or limiting my ability to install applications on a device I own
This includes not in the Google play store so like f-droid or like how people would get software from a places website or GitHub or sourceforge or wherever and installing it like you can on Windows or a Mac or Linux
The installation of software (both Universal Windows Platform (UWP) and Windows API apps) is only possible through the Microsoft Store, and built-in and Microsoft Store-obtained command line programs or shells cannot be run in S mode
Starting to think phones should just go back to being exclusively for calling and texting anyway, maybe emailing too. Everything else can be done from a laptop. Does it really make our lives better to have access to everything through our phones?
Sure, mapping and locale data is extremely helpful and makes up a significant portion of what I use my phone for when I’m out and about. My question is more geared towards whether the ability to bank, shop or use social media from my phone is really necessary.
Obviously, it’s a personal choice and I’m more thinking aloud when I question whether I’d be okay with the trade-off of having a phone with fewer capabilities.
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They were supposed to fight evil, not join it.
Don’tbe evil.Corporate has decided that the rules are too long and need to be trimmed a little.
They were supposed to make all the money by any means necessary as dictated by the capital, and they are doing that.
They’ve removed that phrase from their ethos a long time ago
Literally. It was big news.
I know. Some people might have missed that.
Fuck them. I hope open source / de-googled android can somehow survive this.
Regulators won’t be any help - Apple has always been even more locked down than that, and no one forbade it, so how are they gonna stop Google from doing the same? IMO the only way out is to leave Android and turn to Linux completely (that means Linux hardware adaptation layers, no more Android anywhere). Some phones have already been made like this
Regulators forced Google to do this lol
Surely this will lead to the balkanisation of Android.
Motorola is going to grapheneos, Xiaomi etc go with their own app stores and so on.
But regulators forced Apple to open up a bit
Main-line Linux phones are really not the way, at least at the moment. Android is fine, AOSP really is an amazing project and easily one of the most impressive software projects ever advanced by humanity. AOSP-derivatives like LineageOS or GrapheneOS are just as much FOSS as any traditional Linux distribution.
AOSP is nice and everything, but you do realize with their next move, Google can take it away anytime they want, right? They actually have already taken steps that make it harder to create independent ROMs, by stopping the publication of device trees.
Graphene os announced a partnership with Motorola. My next phone will be a Motorola with Graphene OS.
People don’t get it: it doesn’t matter Graphene or LineageOS. Its still Android and will still be bound to the same limitations, unless you go fully degoogled which means give up on internet banking, cardless payments and government apps. (And much more like m Donalds app and more… But I don’t care for those)
We need open trust platform not one controlled by Google, Graphene or lineage are just not valid alternatives. We need a Linux phone.
https://grapheneos.social/@GrapheneOS/116261301913660830
Not sure if it applies to users only or to developers making apps too. Anyone knows?
This is a totally unrealted point. This applies to the age verification requirements and not the freedom to install apps outside Google control
I don’t do any of those. It’s easy.
I see this take repeated again and again it is simply not true. LineageOS and other FOSS AOSP-derivatives are the best, most-supported and most-accepted FOSS mobile operating systems that we have available to us. And no, you neither have to give up on contactless payments nor on internet banking or government apps. There are many applications that don’t play nice with FOSS Android, but if you make the effort to choose your service providers with intent, so that they are compatible, then it is very much possible to daily-drive a fully de-Googled phone.
I agree with most of everything you wrote.
But banking apps and government apps is not a convenience, is a requirement, especially because, well, by law, they are required to provide an app and there is no choice around it. At least here.
I could indeed go back to bicycle everywhere I want to go and take in the train, but that is not convenience, that is life, so I need a car.
My point is that Google controls Android, whether they graciously allow us to have our foss Android and recompile it from sources is nice, but we still depend on Google and this is not good.
This is what needs to change, and there is no way around it.
Graphene isn’t a ROM, it is a standalone mobile OS based on the Android Open Source Project. So yes, Google primarily develops it, and has de-facto control. But Graphene is actively working to change that, especially with partnering with OEMs so that they can increase device driver support and give more devs incentive to work on AOSP/Graphene in general. For mobile devices the device drivers are huge, unlike desktop/server linux where MOST (obviously not all) things work.
I beg to defer on the device drivers. Maybe you don’t remember, but it’s been decades before Linux would adapt, reimplement or convince manufacturer to provide drivers for it.
Modems first. Graphics card next. Wi-Fi networks also. Winprinters. They all come to my mind. And it’s only by time and effort that now looks just works everywhere.
And now while graphene indeed is doing a great job that I appreciate very much, at the same time they are not developing an operating system. Google is.
There is a huge effort behind developing a full operating system, and it also requires standardization and somebody who defines what the standards are.
At this point, Google is the only one doing that. And if they go closed doors, no open source AOSP clone could keep up with Google changing standards and still be compatible, which would end up as an incompatible operating system.
My point is that currently Android needs Google, and there is no fooling around. We are years away of being independent from Google, whatever the great effort other developers are doing.
I appreciate everybody’s work and I have been a lineage supporter and maintainer myself.
There are tons of issues that we need to solve to be really independent from Google. Forking he’s the least of those.
What about fairphone? A friend has one and choose the “no google” when she bought it. Works kind of apparently.
Ask you friend if the McDonald app works out of the box.
I know, I don’t care for McDonald app as well, but it’s an easy example of a stupid app requiring play certification to work…
There is some sandboxing, so maybe, but I sincerely doubt she has a mcdonalds app lol.
People should just stop being so addicted to convenience.
Quit internet banking and cardless payments.
I don’t care for cardless payments, but I do use internet banking, you cannot do without at least here, and government apps too are useful and doing with out is just… Impossible.
Mobile banking is mandatory here, if not able to do mobile banking then you can use non free SMS messages, which sucks.
Government apps mandatory I mean that without, you are cut from most digital government services, which is not practical at all. Survivable, but a pain.
Found the swede? 🇸🇪😁
No, sono Italiano… But I guess it’s similar across the continent…
You say non free SMS messages as if it’s otherwise “free”, but the product is you.
Utility or privacy, it’s your pick. If you value privacy more, you won’t give in to utility.
Government apps are the only one I think are hard to do without.
You talk of what you don’t know. Bank apps here are mandatory by law. If you don’t or can’t use a bank app then you can use a SMS verification approach where you are required to PAY SMS that the bank sends you.
Receiving SMS here is free, only those from the bank for verification are to be paid without the bank app, it’s just a scam to force you to use the bank app.
The bank app itself is not a scam like a you are the service approach, and it’s not free either as you pay the bank services with your bank account fees already. Maybe you don’t pay a specific fee for the app, bit you already pay your home banking fees anyway.
Methinks anyone fighting the system will have to carry two phones: one phone presenting a fake happy face to the government and corps and usable only for bank transactions and bureaucratic processes, and a degoogled phone for the things we actually want to do, like organizing rallies and redistributing samizdat.
Quit internet banking? That’s the only form of banking available when the banking offices only have open on every other Tuesday, during the full moon between 11-12:30, closed for an hours lunch.
For me its maps. Getting directions is mostly why im still on /e/. I would love a linux phone! But im stuck at the moment.
Well, FairPhone has GPS support on Ubuntu and that opens the world to a bunch of native GPS apps
Note that I haven’t tested this, I’m an iOS user, but Linux with Fairphone is starting to sound better and better. I moved from Android to iOS because Android started feeling so restrictive compared to what it used to be in the single digit version numbers era, it stopped making sense to prefer it over the more convenient OS. Now it seems Linux on certain phones is starting to get usable enough that it can be what Android used to be a decade ago when I still liked it.
Interesting i may have to give it a shot.
Do let everyone know if you do, I think there’s actually quite a few people here who’d be willing to make the change to Linux if the Fairphone is truly as well supported as the UBPorts website claims
100%. I have one app for work that i also need. Do you happen to know if two oses can work on a phone? Like grub allows?
Friend have a non-google fairphone and has some maps-like app that works at least well enough.
Her bank app worked most of the time? Guess it’s a cat & mouse game until it’s finally established or killed.
For now a linux phone will still lack native banking apps, cardless payment and government apps. Unless the app can run on a degoogled OS (Graphene, waydroid, etc.).
By open trust platform do you mean something akin to play protect?
Yes an alternative to play protect/play integrity… But at very least not vendor locked
WTF are you talking about?
It’s based on AOSP (open source). They can easily fork Android and do whatever they want. Open source means full control over software / OS.
Starting from scratch has zero benefits, and only means the experience is shitty and app ecosystem is nonexistent.
And those apps which require hardware verification using Google APIs are available on Linux? How does this equate to “we need a Linux phone”?
The issue, as you said, is “we need an open trust platform”. The best path forward is we push for that so that Graphene and anyone else can us it.
Giving up all the open source work and app ecosystem of Android is irrelevant and only prevents 99.999℅ of people from adopting it.
They’re not wrong.
Of course you can fork and have full control over your fork, but Graphene and company want to be able to keep merging AOSP’s code to keep up with features and improvements.
Merging code from a divergent codebase is harder the more divergence there is, and with big codebases it can easily overwhelm small and medium-sized teams.
It’s the same reason there aren’t lots of chromium forks with manifest v2 support, while it is technically feasible, it requires a bigger effort than most projects can afford.
Keeping an open AOSP fork is not a bad idea, but it’s not clear whether GrapheneOS or any other project will be able to keep up with that workload.
Of course Linux phones require a lot of work too, but it’s work oriented towards making it work instead of towards undoing whatever sabotage google ads to AOSP, so it might motivate more people or be easier to do.
Also, both approaches are compatible.
Linux phones can use waydroid, which depends on AOSP, to run Android apps.
I am sorry to say that forking AOSP is not an easy solution.
I cannot talk for Grafene as I don’t know much of that organization, but I have been part of the Lineage Os organization for a little bit as a maintainer, and I can tell you that nobody is actually able to start working on such an effort as an AOSP fork.
I would gladly be happy if such a work would actually be maintained and supported long time, but I’m skeptical that anybody but a big organization has a power and a resource is to do so. After all even Linux is actually brought along by lots of organizations and also commercial organizations.
Yes, we need an open source trust platform, and I believe that is the only real way forward. I would vouch for a Linux mobile operating system, but indeed, air truly open, Android would be good as well.
Graphenes is degoogled and can support play services in a locked down environment so it doesn’t have full control of your entire system. Play services is what is expected to be used to do the verification process.
While play services are mandatory for play cartification, the opposite is not automatic. In fact, bootloader and device fingerprint play an important role and when you replace the stock OS usually play integrity fails by design.
Do you know first hand that you can achieve play integrity with Graphene and no strange tricks like spoof signature or root?
This is the route I’ve gone, also if you think any bank, or government is going to suddenly support a Linux phone I’ve got bad news
Given an open certification process anybody could apply and achieve that, at least in theory. Something that with play integrity you cannot being obscured and proprietary.
So who knows, maybe one day even a Linux phone could. But not unless we get an open certification approach.
I hope Motorola comes out with a Graphene-compatible phone before September.
What other recourse do we have if they don’t?
e/OS on a Fairphone? Sony Xperia?
Motorola should make their own wallet app that works on graphene os.
Grapheme is a fork of android, not a GNU offering
Hopefully they launch it before September, it certainly seems like it will take longer.
I’m using a Motorola 5G Ace with /e/ OS and its been a great phone (camera is just OK)
Is there a release date on these… like before September hopefully?
I’m thinking maybe my next phone is a dumb phone that can only make calls and maybe text. They still make those, right?
LightPhone?
This is what happens when you don’t have strong competitors. We need to promote more independent OS platforms for smartphones like Linux distros.
have you read the process - it’s all about anti scam which is a billion dollar industry right now
https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2026/03/android-developer-verification.html
We are taking about Google. The US tech company that works with the US government(which is rotted to the core now). No matter how noble the reasons they will tell you for this actions, this identity verification will be used for surveillance and control of personal life. This is basically the same thing as with child safety now.
I’ve treated a couple on a Fairphone 4, I’ve owned dsupported devices and I’m enamored, but there are some pros and cons, I highly suggest helping your distros and DE of choice to advance the daily drivability of mobile Linux offerings.
PostmarketOS is a bit annoying because of the mainlining process., but worth considering, specially if you’re a developer, or don’t mind tinkering with kernel configs, OR if you have a phone that is already supported. You got the Alpine repos, plus Flatpak, and Waydroid. (sidenote fairphones need some work, please send help if you can)
Mobian is similar to postmarketOS, but there’s Deloitian which can help adaption, although it uses Halium. Debian repos and Flatpak and Waydroid are available too.
Ubuntu Touch also uses Hailium, but is a great option for first timers, its easier to port to devices, and has a lot of devices supported and more in development/testing. But, also offers a vast versatility for running applications, not sure if more than the rest, though… (OpenStore, Waydroid, Libertine Containers for Ubuntu Repos+PPAs, no Flatpak though)
SailfishOS also uses Hailium, and is a continuation of Maemo and Moblin, and although its not FOSS, its more customizable than UT, and has more keyboard and sync options than most. If your device isnt officially supported you can still run android via Wayland (like all distributions here) this uses zypper btw, also no current flatpak, and has OpenRepos and Chum Repo.
There’s also Manjaro Mobile, which means there’s also Arch Mobile. There’s Fedora PocketBlue, its brand new, but stable in some devices.
As for Mobile Environments; Phosh is most common and I can’t complain, although I don’t enjoy gnome, its been in development for long enough that I’ll admit, its my preferred environment, despite needing another app to theme Qt apps.
GNOME Mobile is suppose to be mainline but, felt more limiting than Phosh, which has been running for longer. I didn’t try this much.
KDE Mobile, JFC I want to love it, but it currently still needs work, the Akonadi alternative wasn’t ready when I tried it, its very close to how Android works, and is the most customizable of the bunch. Again, if you can, send help for development.
Lomiri (UT) can technically be installed in any distroes, it has probably my favorite implementation of a status bar, there’s not much wrong with it, but I haven’t tested it outside of UT.
Lipstick, SailfishOS proprietary fork of NemoMobile, is beautiful and feels nostalgic to what old phones would’ve evolved into has we not have this duopoly. Its closed source so, you can’t contribute, but…
NemoMobile is in active development, and also prefers openSUSE as a base, I suggest checking them out and maybe contribute if it interests you.
There are more but I haven’t tried them.
My personal favorite were PostmarketOS, andSailfishOS. But I’d give someone Ubuntu Touch (or SFOS) for beginners, or Mobian for not-so-beginners.
AKA: Don’t waste time and energy fighting google, spend it helping GNU phones.
Both are important.
Legal cases create precedents which can be used to fight similar cases in the future.
In bizarre legislation systems like the US and the UK if I understand it correctly. I hope the EU will find some non BS thing to do stopping this crap.
And that graphene os will come to good cheap phones 😬
I expect the opposite but hope I’m wrong.
Which GNU project are you buying from/supporting?
Motorola is releasing with Graphene OS soon.
You don’t need to wait for confirmation someone else is doing x before doing x yourself. Take the first step!
In fairness, plenty of actors are taking steps in doing x, aka, mobile Linux operating systems. It’s difficult as fuck, even for those with lots of experience, in ways that primarily boil down to the proprietary nature of smartphone communications infrastructure because of companies that have taken actions similar to Google, and then were supported by overreaching legislation. (From what I understand)
This shit runs so deep and has been running for so long, but we’ve only recently started hearing more about ongoing projects because of the flagrant privacy violations surrounding us. Just because so many of us only recently started paying attention, myself included, doesn’t mean that these solutions are new.
I’m confused about what point you’re making here. @[email protected] is asking for recommendations. How do they “take the first step” when they have no idea what’s good? Especially when they’re talking to someone who seems to already know which ones are good, and it’s very easy to ask their knowledgeable opinion.
You’re assuming kbobabob is asking that question in good faith, while thenoirwolfess seems to believe they might be asking in bad faith (i.e., rhetorically asking as a “call out” because they assume leftascenter isn’t actually supporting a GNU phone project)
Stop overthinking it. This is a platform for discussion. Let people ask a damn question.
This is called explaining. I think the issue here is a lack of thinking on your part
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Indeed, I assumed sarcasm, and replied as if kbobabob was sincere and honestly thinking of supporting a GNU project but would only support whichever ones leftascenter are supporting. My own bias played a part in my interpretation, as I believe that at this point any community GNU project is a worthy project.
Language and emotions are complex aha
That’s how I read it too, but it looks like we’re in the minority
I’m pretty unaware of Linux phone projects. Currently on Samsung, but if a good enough Linux phone came along then I’d switch.
Are there actually any projects that are worth it currently? Is it a situation where no one can agree so it’s a fractured space and never really moves forward as a result?
Oh. Well if you’re right, then I just double down. That’s a shitty thing to do. Assuming bad faith tends to be the sign of someone who themselves acts in bad faith. The first comment asked a reasonable question and there was no rational basis on which to assume it was anything other than sincere.
Every single time competitor appeared, they were ignored. Blackberry, Symbian, Windows 8/Mobile.
Microsoft even tried throwing money at app developers to bridge the biggest gap aka apps, but most companies didn’t even want their money, perceiving porting as too troublesome.
What? BlackBerry was ignored? BlackBerry existed before Android and iOS. It was Android and iOS that killed BlackBerry.
It’s actually a shame, because Windows Phone was actually good. It featured a much more user/task-centric UI, letting users think about what they want to do, rather than which app they need to use to do it. Of course, this was bad for apps’ ability to gain and reinforce brand recognition. So of course they didn’t want to support it.
I was a windows phone user and the last Windows version is to blame for killing their phones. They released a half baked platform that literally required SOAP for all network traffic. No raw TCP or UDP access just SOAP… a horrible standard based on XML with like 10x the overhead. 6.1 was probably the best but even that was plagued by compatibility issues.
Honestly this, I thought the windows phone was really good. That said I’ll never forgive Microsoft for buying nokia and effectively killing Meego (yes I know sailfish is a thing but it’s pretty stunted growth wise)
We need a platform like Framework in mobile sector.
There was almost one, many years ago, but Google bought and killed it
Welp my next phone will be a used phone up to 2024 manufacturing. My current phone is already a used one, although one of 2018 manufacturing.
And it can’t be disabled in forks? Or will the google sdk require that from the OS (for apps that use it)?
Forks can disable whatever they want.
But the play integrity API, or safetynet or whatever, can fail you in its security checks, and apps that require them may refuse to run on those devices.
How advanced are we on the linux phone front?
Not very. They exist, but they’re not mature. Pretty sure the number that actually support calling and texting (you know, the things you have a cell phone to do) are in the single digits.
Tip: Calls and SMSs can be done by feature-phone. Advanced texting can be done through Matrix or XMPP which I believe works on Linux.
And wearing a feature phone (if it’s small) and another phone isn’t a million miles away.
Google is the biggest threat to anything good in technology, this cancer must be eradicated
There actually has been an update on this. The advanced flow has been revealed and it’s like a 24-hour wait and a few prompts to go through and I’ll reboot and enabling developer mode… Bit of friction but all in all it’s better than nothing I guess.
The dev verification is “optional”. With the condition that if a developer doesn’t then users can only install after jumping through a few hoops.
Yeah at least it’s better than Apple’s approach, where you have to connect your phone to a PC once every 7 days to reactivate Developer Mode. Don’t have a computer? Fuck you!
That said, I have zero faith in Google sticking with the compromise solution in the long run. They’re going to try to force the change on everyone again in the future, once they’ve broken us down a bit more.
Meanwhile at least we have a little longer than September before they actually ruin the platform completely… How long? Who could say but I’ll take what small victories I can get
Wait that’s not a thing already?
So people can just make scam apps and once you report it to the App Store there is no recourse because even the company doesn’t know who they are?
So the way compute used to work, is you could install any program you want from anywhere. You could buy a program from a web site or copy a disk and install the program.
Smartphones have been around since the late 1990s in various forms, it used to be, you could just install whatever you want.
Then, in 2008, Apple released the iPhone app store, and it was a closed space, a “walled garden”. You can only install apps on their phone if they approve them.
Google decided to join the phone race and released a phone where one could still install applications from anywhere, not just their store. There are multiple stores like others have mentioned, or you can download an APK file from anywhere and install it on your phone.
Part of their behavior since is slightly open to interpretation, as the technology is now used by everyone, not just tech nerds. People could install “bad” programs, and they could lose money, cell networks could be compromised, etc.
It likely costs a lot of companies a lot of money to deal with dumb users doing stupid shit. So from one perspective, making it extremely hard to install unknown programs from anywhere will curb that expense.
It could be a defensive move, as LLMs now allow anyone to write computer software with very little knowledge of it, and it is just bad timing.
On the other hand, since the beginning of computers, the owner of the machine could run whatever software they wanted.
This move by Google is basically making it so there is NO mobile compute platform that the owner of the device actually owns, and is allowed to do with their hardware what they want. Apple or Google, that is it. Apple had always been closed, which should have been made illegal, but I digress.
It has been a slippery slope with Android for almost 2 decades, and this move is basically the end of the ability for free humans to install free software from anywhere on the hardware they own and paid anywhere up to $3000 for.
Basically a huge dive for personal freedom on a planetary scale, decided by one corporation.
The recourse has been removal.
And the solution proposed is not requiring identification specifically for Play store developers, but any developer at all.
Removal but no means for consumers to seek money back or damages because it’s just the Wild West?
I think if you’re publishing an app to a public store then they should know who the fuck you are.
No one would have an issue with them making this demand of Play Playstore Devs. This demand is being made to every dev of EVERY APP. That includes stores that google has absolutely no control. That means that I no longer have the right to take my own risks and to trust who I want to trust.
They should absolutely make this a requirement to join their store. Id support that. They have no right taking away or limiting my ability to install applications on a device I own
This includes not in the Google play store so like f-droid or like how people would get software from a places website or GitHub or sourceforge or wherever and installing it like you can on Windows or a Mac or Linux
Rhis isn’t related to payment systems, which mostly have kyc requirements and extensive capacity to claw back money.
If it was only a question of publishing on the Play store, then I think that would make some sense. That’s not what’s happening here.
Lol imagine if Microsoft had succeeded in controlling the development and distribution of all software used on Windows. We’d all lose something.
They are kind of trying to do that with S Mode
Google: “Only I can make malware apps!”
Starting to think phones should just go back to being exclusively for calling and texting anyway, maybe emailing too. Everything else can be done from a laptop. Does it really make our lives better to have access to everything through our phones?
I do like being able to look things up on a browser and I use the gps mapping a lot but most of the other stuff is fluff.
Yeah, I’m not dragging a laptop around everywhere with me to search business opening hours / locations etc
Sure, mapping and locale data is extremely helpful and makes up a significant portion of what I use my phone for when I’m out and about. My question is more geared towards whether the ability to bank, shop or use social media from my phone is really necessary.
Obviously, it’s a personal choice and I’m more thinking aloud when I question whether I’d be okay with the trade-off of having a phone with fewer capabilities.